Wednesday, November 26, 2008

TBray Response: Sun Should Stop Sucking

(Talking about Tim Bray's opinion on what Sun should do).

As someone who's used a lot of Sun's products, here's my response as to what you can do, but more importantly, what you probably actually will do.

Price Your Hardware Less
Let's look at the Niagara vs. x86
  • T5140 base (dual 4-core T2+ processors, 8GB of RAM, some disks) is $15k.
  • X4140 (dual 4-core Opteron processors, 8GB of RAM, lots more disks) is $5.6k.
  • X4150 (dual 4-core Xeon processors, 8GB of RAM, same disks as the X4140) is $7.3k.
Lemme get this straight, Tim: you think that the web application deployment crowd are willing to spend about 2-3 times the price for your magical CMT platform? Really? Have you met your typical hosting company? Or have you been spending so long at Sun you don't know what people actually care about?

Here's the thing: you actually make good hardware. The X4140? Great server. Your Niagara processors? Probably pretty good (never had a chance to play with one yet). Constellation? Great IB switch. The multithreaded 10GbE NICs? Pretty good hardware if you have an app that is multi-socket based. But people aren't going to run web applications on something that's more than twice the price; web applications are all about horizontal scaleout. Unless your hardware is 2x the performance for 2x the price, you're going to fail.

Quit Confusing Your Branding
We get it. You invented Java. Good on you. I like Java. That's not an excuse for:
  • Changing your stock ticker to JAVA.
  • Calling every single thing you can, even when it doesn't involve Java at all (Sun Java System Messaging Server, a product which contains precisely 0% Java)
  • Grouping completely unrelated products under completely confusing banners (Sun Java Communications Suite, Sun Java System Messaging Server, Sun Java System Application Platform; these are all on your web site as of right now).
When you come up with your next branding exercise, please stop rebranding every single thing you make into one big bag of branding Fail.

Solaris Will Never Beat Linux
Like it or not, Solaris will never beat Linux at this point. You had lots of opportunities to make this not be the case, and you failed. Mostly because of your own stupid decisions, but the simple fact is that at this point, Solaris will never beat Linux for anything other than specialized systems. These are:
  • Applications that require it because they were written once 10 years ago and can never change. Milk these guys for as much as you possibly can; it's the Computer Associates business plan and they seem to do okay out of it.
  • Storage appliances (CIFS integration and ZFS are good and better than the equivalents in Linux-land).
No matter what Tim says, Solaris will never defeat Linux in the general web application deployment space, and there is absolutely nothing you can ever do to change this. Give up. Give up now. You're way too far behind, you don't get those developers, and you'll never be able to catch up with the state of the world.

The thing is that one of the points that Tim raises, Solaris having such a stable ABI, actually causes them problems in general worldview and software engineering, because it means that they can never actually change anything to make it better. But more than that, it indicates that their core focus is really about all the legacy applications which are tied to their platform, and not about driving new customers to the platform.

What Sun Could Do
Divide yourself logically into the following divisions:
  • Legacy Systems. Sparc IV, Solaris, all the old software packages nobody uses, existing StorageTek hardware. Your job is to keep these customers from spending the effort to migrate to something cheaper; no more, no less.
  • Modern Hardware. Your x86 hardware, IB hardware, networking chipsets, Niagara. Your job is to do advanced development and be technologically advanced, but at least marginally cost competitive.
  • Open Storage. OpenSolaris, the new Open Storage hardware. Your job here is to provide a new path off all the storage dead ends that you've gone down, and try to eviscerate the big storage vendors who are insanely overpriced at this point.
  • Goodwill Software. All the stuff you're never really going to make proper money off of, and probably shouldn't have gotten involved in in the first place. MySQL, Java, Glassfish, NetBeans, StarOffice. Your job here is to try to stem the loss that all of these systems are costing you, and keep from allowing their marketing teams from ruining the rest of your branding on profitable products.
Note that there are two growth markets in there (Modern Hardware and Open Storage), and the rest is all irrelevant tangents and legacy. The growth markets are where your future lies, and keeping the others around gives you the chance to migrate existing customers to the new platform, keeping your vision of a one-stop-shop IBM killer intact. But you have to be completely honest with yourselves: the existing stuff is legacy and will never go anywhere, and you need to pile resources into the growth areas without confusing your branding or customers.

What Sun Will Do
Here's my predictions:
  • Sun will continue to price all their proprietary hardware so absolutely above the costs of generic hardware that only people under serious lockin to their platform even think about buying it, never allowing them to achieve any types of economy of scale.
  • Sun will continue to give software products stupid, confusing names. I predict the Sun Java System Enterprise Database Suite being the new name for MySQL.
  • Sun will continue to try to drive Solaris to everything through a neverending sequence of initiatives, confusing anybody even considering deploying it, so that you only ever hit the legacy market and Solaris die-hards.
  • Sun will continue to invest in stuff that will never ever drive any meaningful revenue to them, but sap massive amounts of engineering resources. To try to justify this to their shareholders, they will come up with confusing branding and marketing initiatives to try to tie everything together.
In short, Sun, I have no fear that you will find some way to drag failure from the claws of oh-so-close. Just like you have for years.

12 comments:

Anonymous said...

They could always fund 1000 or so ycombinator companies as a hedge with all that cash they have lying around!

Anonymous said...

The best thing Sun could do at this point is release ZFS with a better license and raise the white flag.

timle53 said...

Applause from this part of the blogosphere...

My thought about Sun?

http://catgrowl.blogspot.com/2008/11/what-sun-microsystems-should-do.html

Kirk Wylie said...

@Tim: Not sure I agree with your thrust about the desktop. The only thing I think Sun can do here is what they are doing, which is hit something like JavaFX, which again is 0 revenue for them. They're better off hitting the server side of those applications, which is always going to be bigger than the client side.

@Anonymous#1: I suppose they could do that, if we really wanted another 1000 YComb companies around. But would that make the world a better place in any way? I think the living would envy the dead!

@Anonymous#2: Yep. From a software perspective ZFS is pretty much the only thing they have going on at the moment that's really and truly compelling and ties you to them revenue-wise in any way. And that's precisely why they won't do it.

Sam said...

There are many more reasons to like Solaris and Sun besides ZFS. DTrace and Zones to name two. There is nothing comparable on the Linux side. Zones offer so many more advantages over KVM or Xen that I don't even know where to begin and there is nothing even close to DTrace on the server side. If you are running Linux then in my opinion you should be running Solaris. I made the switch at my company (we WERE running Ubuntu) and we haven't looked back since.

Solaris isn't even close to needing to throw in the towel and as far as I'm concerned if you run Linux and aren't look at Solaris you are doing yourself a huge disservice. Certainly Sun has lots of areas to improve but saying Solaris will never overtake Linux is to not really know Solaris. I don't care either way but if it doesn't it says more about the Linux admins than about Solaris.

As for the cost of Sun hardware it's not even close to being out of line. Yeah of course it's way more expensive than white label boxes but it also is way better tested and better components. I recently compared it to HP and the Sun equipment was cheaper by a couple hundred bucks. Oh yeah and it was 1u where as the HP was 2u. Being in a colo rack 1u makes even more of a difference than a couple hundred bucks.

Cristian said...

I fully agree with the Java brand hype. They have exaggerated.
Their (specific) hardware is indeed very-very expensive. I remember that I looked at their Niagara hardware wondering if it's cheaper since they would want to promote it, only to run away as soon as I saw the price tag.
As for Solaris, I haven't touched their OS since 2003, but I recall that their CLI sucked compared to GNU/Linux. That's why developers from small shops are using Linux instead of Solaris. Solaris is too complicated for them. Some of them are even developing on Windows, even if they are deploying on Linux, because they want to go on the easy path.

Anonymous said...

IBM has it's pants down right now with GPUs. They bet the farm on Cell and it is going to take them a while to catch up. Be the first commercial vendor to port apps to GPU and provide support.

Richard said...

It's nice to have some dissenting opinion around. Between Tim Bray and Jonathan Schwartz sometimes I feel I get lost in all the the PR spin.

Kirk Wylie said...

@Sam: I agree that there are many things to like about Solaris. My point was that those things have nothing to do with running a web application stack, which was particularly what Tim was talking about. Zones, DTrace, none of that is THAT particularly interesting to the LAMP guys to be fair. Moreover, at least DTrace you can get the functionality out of by making sure you have one Solaris box you can run DTrace on if you need to.

Then again, while DTrace is great, so is ValGrind, and you can't get that on Solaris. So you win one, you lose one.

Note that in my post I was very careful to point out that their x86 hardware is really really good stuff AND price competitive. Sun can do it on commodity stuff, they just don't try to make Niagara price competitive with x86. Sun x86 vs. HP or Dell x86, Sun has some really good features and is price competitive.

Kirk Wylie said...

@Anonymous on GPUs: Sun is going to fail there no matter what, because they don't own a GPU company, and at this point other OS vendors are ahead of them in GPGPU support.

In fact, when my company (which is a large Solaris x86 shop) went looking to prototype some financial computations on GPGPUs, we had a problem because NONE of the GPGPU vendors support Solaris x86 at all. None of them. The same is true of all emerging hardware acceleration.

Anonymous said...

ZFS is a complete waste of time, they should just cancel it and be done with it. Java? Dead 5 years ago, I don't know a single app that uses it. NetBeans? Dead. SPARC? Totally dead, no business I know uses it. Sun is a big fucking heap of crap that does nothing for the world. I have no idea why anyone pays attention.

Kirk Wylie said...

By the way, for those of you looking at this, I now believe in complete dismemberment.